Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert

Hey Scott, I was recently watching some old Memphis wrestling stuff and got into the feud between Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert and Jerry Lawler. I was pretty amazed at how good Gilbert was, particularly on the mic, and I was wondering why he never went to the WWE? Was it because he was too small, or some other reason?

He was in WWE, for quite a while actually by his standards, but it’s before he became famous and he was basically an enhancement guy on house shows so it’s not typically publicized. After he became a big star, he developed a drug problem and to call him "hard to work with" would be a major understatement so I can’t see Vince wanting to take that on. Plus, yes, he was way too small anyway.

Daily Thread of Stuff

Well, I un-cut the cord today because it's actually cheaper to get three months of Sasktel TV service on promo than it is just to have internet.  So discuss this and other stuff going on this afternoon!  Go sports?  I dunno, whatever, Brian is better at this shit.  

Other Royal Rumble stuff

Hi Scott,
I have reserved myself to the fact that Roman is going to win the Rumble match and become the next undisputed Bootista. Now I'm trying to find some silver linings to the rest of the show:
1) Sadly, we won't be seeing Kharma as a surprise entrant since she is back in TNA. Is there ANYONE you see showing up unexpectedly and get a huge pop? I'm not talking about Orton, Jericho, RVD, or any of the announce team, but someone who fans would want to see.
2) The New Day has a match scheduled but what is a Rumble without Kofi's annual crazy spot to avoid elimination? What do you think Kofi will pull out this year? I had a vision of him being in the ring at the same time as Adam Rose, where Kofi gets tossed out but is caught by the Rosebuds/Exotic Express (or whatever) and they crowd surf him back into the ring.
3) And lastly, is there any point to the Ascension/ NAO match? Is it just a matter of time before they are sent back to NXT to be repackaged?

​1. I've heard the Dudleyz as the biggest name, which would be fun and get a huge pop in Philly.  Really, using them to destroy the Ascension as a mystery team opponent would have been even better, but apparently no one in WWE actually watches wrestling and remembers that kind of thing anyway.
2.  Yeah, the body surf spot basically writes itself.  I've heard another awesome theory, which is that Daniel Bryan will get "injured" and taken out of the Rumble by the Authority earlier in the show and the fans get all pissed off at Reigns seeming to be the winner, until the Bunny enters at #30, gets the surprise win, and then unmasks himself as Bryan.  ​

​3.  Ain't no repackaging for the Ascension.  Much like Adam Rose, if this doesn't work, they're looking for other work.  They're too old to send down again and WWE would just save money by cutting them loose.  And no, I have no idea what the point is supposed to be.  ​

QOTD #12: Taking stuff for granted

Good morning to the BoD. I hope the Canadian readers aren’t
suffering from too big a hangover after a humid Canada Day. Today’s Wednesday,
which means we’re headed into Off Topic.
Today’s Question:
What did you take for
granted as a kid, but you value today?
We’ll check out some of your answers on that tomorrow. For
now, we’re going to dive right into yesterday’s question. If you want to start
the new discussion, skip ahead or click “comments” to get right into that.

Yesterday, I asked you to come up with forgotten Chris
Jericho moments. Y2J has made a career out of great in-ring performances,
coupled with quality sportz entertainment. You had a lot of different thoughts
on this. Let’s get to it.
Guest: Great Chris Jericho moment was when he &
Christian conspired with a misdirection play to kickoff the 2003 Royal Rumble
Match, resulting in Shawn Michaels taking a chair-shot to the head, wearing the
CRIMSON MASK, and being tossed in no time by the King of the World.
Michaels being eliminated instantaneously was a shocker, and
would take a little bit of the suspense away from the winner once he returned
to eliminate Jericho himself – but the angle was a nice set up to their
eventual Mania showdown.

Porn Peddlin’ Jef Vinson: I remember Jericho being chased up the hall by a wrestler (whose name
escapes me) on Nitro and stopped running because he thought the segment
was over but the cameras were still on and they get a live shot of the
guy almost casually catching up to him.

This came right at the tail end of a classic segment where Jericho is absolutely lost trying to find the ring with his personal security force (as part of his one-man feud with Goldberg).

                      
hulksmashadam: Summerslam 1999, interrupting Road Dog.
“You wanna impress me? Spell ‘lugubrious.'”
BooBoo1782: I love the whole improvised feud with
Goldberg where he kept claiming “wins” over Goldberg that the big guy
never showed up for. It was a great example of Chris taking something goofy,
running with it and getting it over. Reading in his first book about what was
going on behind the scenes and how Chris fought to give it something resembling
a blowoff makes the whole thing even better, IMO.
The angle was brilliantly handled, and it was almost
shocking to learn why we never really got a proper ending upon reading the
book. The story goes that apparently Goldberg wasn’t fond of the angle, he didn’t
get it and felt Jericho was trying to syphon off his heat, or make him look
weak. Jericho did his best to explain to Goldberg that the point was for the
fans to see him want to kick his ass, and suggested maybe doing something at
World War 3 as a full fledged squash. Goldberg’s response? “I’m supposed to be
off during the next pay-per-view!” WCW, ladies and gentlemen!
Jon Eks: Gotta be Jericho introducing all the
participants of the Cruiserweight Battle Royal at Slamboree 98.
“This guy used to
be a great bartender, but it hasn’t translated to his wrestling skills. He’s
the scourge of the illustrious Guerrero family, he is Chavo Guerrero, Jr!”
“Now we got
Damian. He can’t afford a mask, so he uses paint… but sooner or later, he’s
gonna buy a mask. I guarantee you that.”
“The winner of
the Lou Ferrigno look-alike contest, he’s also from Mexico, El Daaaandy!”
“He’s a former
champion in many countries… He’s gonna rock, rock til he drops. Rock, rock,
never stop! Marty Jannetty, ladies and gentleman!”
“This guy is
Silver King. He wins 12 more matches, he’ll be upgraded to Golden King.”
Just thinking about
this still makes me laugh.
For anyone who hasn’t seen this play itself out, do yourself
a favor and watch this on the Network as soon as you can. Between the
entrances, the match itself is another brilliant layer to one of Jericho’s
finest feuds.
Mike_N: Probably not forgotten, but definitely the
ultra-serious rage-filled promo against the Rock (“I am not a joke!”)
when he shut the Rock up mid-catchphrase and delivered the goods. Definitely a
side of him we’d never seen before.
Extant1979: I’m going to go with the shenanigans leading
up to his WrestleMania match with Commissioner William Regal. Pissing in his
teapot and sending Kamala into his office. That may be more for Regal’s facial
expressions for the interactions, but Jericho seemed to have a lot of fun with
it.
“Which of Lord Regal’s faces do you find the funniest?” has
potential as a future QOTD. I call dibs on him taking a Pity City from Brian
Knobbs, and his subsequent vomit-face.
MrJustinB: Breaking the Jeritron 6000 on Shawn
Michaels’ stupid face.
Basscase: When he won a cage match against X-Pac by
giving him one of the most insane ballshots in history, when X landed
crotch-first on the open door.
X-Pac wasn’t even supposed to be part of that match; now
THAT’S a bad day.
Petrock: Fan: Go back to Toronto!!
Jericho: I’m from
Winnipeg you idiot.
Such an awesome
improvised little moment.
Bill Ray: Talking to the crazy conspiracy theory lady
in Washington DC:
“Are you a
Jericholic?
“I don’t know
what that is.”
Jericho’s entire trip to Washington in an effort to see the
President because of JJ Dillon was something else to watch. His delusional grandeur
and narcissism couldn’t have been played better.
Dirty_Dave_Delaney:
One of my favourite Jericho moments is
the entrance Jericho makes through the crowd for his match against Rey Mysterio
at Extreme Rules 2009 whilst still cutting a promo only to pause several times
in order to warn fans to not touch him, “Don’t you touch me again, I’ll
knock you out junior!”
WILLYOUSTOP?!?: I always loved Jericho’s quasi-heal turn on
the Rock in late 2001. They just lost a tag match and Jericho was busted open.
Rock checks on Jericho in the trainer’s room to see if he’s okay and makes some
smart-ass remark. Jericho mutters something like, “What the hell does he
want from me? I was trying to win the match.” Rock overhears it, comes
back in, and demands Jericho repeat it, which Jericho does about two inches
from Rock’s face, which then leads to a gigantic brawl and Jericho eventually
winning the unified titles in December.
This was a nice change of pace. Jericho, to this point, was
always known as the snarky wise-cracking Canuck – and the transformation he
underwent in late 2001 really highlighted the importance of the big gold belts,
and allowed us to take him a little more seriously as a main event threat.
Kbjone: (See
video below) Who said Jericho couldn’t
make the WWE money? I’m sure a lot of “DX Glowsticks” were sold that
night.

It’s reasons like this I asked the question – I’d never once
seen this before. Granted, it’s only glowsticks, but it’s refreshing to see a
modern wrestler not worried about the barriers between himself and the fans and
putting himself in the line of fire to draw heat. And speaking of stuff I didn’t
know…
Marv Cresto: My real favorite Jericho moment is his
appearance on Opie and Anthony to promote that very album. He showed up as
Moongoose and proceeded through a 30 minute interview refusing to break
character and annoying the living hell out of the hosts and every listener. It
was his very first appearance and it was years before they invited him back he
had annoyed them so badly. Now they’re all great friends and do spectacular
radio together (as Jericho does generally)
This is such classic Jericho. The guy is an entertainer
through and through. For the fans, for the wrestlers backstage, and in cases
like this, for himself.
Starscreamlive: I always hated Jericho until he started
doing the whole tantrum and tearing up David Penzer’s suit up each Monday night,
coming back next week to apologize, and then wind up ruining another suit. That
made me a Jericho fan.
Don’t forget however, that Jericho bought him the new suit and promptly destroyed it again. That made
it all the funnier.
Michael Weyer: I always loved after he loses the
Cruiserweight title to Malenko, he comes on “Nitro” to read a letter
he got from Ted Turner responding to his many protests. It starts off with
Turner agreeing with Jericho’s position and the title should be returned and he
cheers and gloats. He then goes on reading as the letter changes to Turner sick
of Jericho’s whining and complaining and so upholds the ref’s decision. Jericho
is almost sobbing as he finishes the letter “your little-known law will be
unused, undisclosed and unfortunate, similar to your wrestling career, signed
Uncle Ted Turner?!” Hysterical.
Tons of answers related to the Malenko feud. Honestly, I’m
shocked nobody managed to bring up the fact he turned Dean into the biggest
babyface in the company with the use of an easel holding Malenko’s photo as a
PLOT DEVICE. That was the minute I personally was sold that the guy was going
to be a big, big star.
Fantastic answers all around. From 1998-2002, Jericho was in
his prime and hitting on all levels. It’s a shame so much of it was wasted
toiling in WCW’s midcard. I can only imagine the fits he would have given the
top stars if they’d had the guts to run with him in a highlighted role.
Amongst forgotten moments, there was one that came to mind
when I got the inspiration to run with this question. For some reason, I was
reminded of an interview he did with Terri in late 2002. There truly was no
rhyme or reason for how the interview went down, but Jericho hit gold, as he
always does. Watch, and enjoy. I’ll see you tomorrow.

Family Guy – The Quest For Stuff

Hi Scott,
 How have you enjoyed the new Family Guy app so far?  And have I failed as a parent when my 9 year old daughter asks me if I can make Bonnie ‘twerk it’? 

​I like it!  I actually find the mechanics to be Simpsons-like but different enough to where it feels fresh.  I had pretty much hit the wall of stuff to do in Tapped Out anyway, and having to unlock each character through a series of actions rather than just having them pop in is a cool idea.  It feels like it takes a long time to clear new land and costs a lot, but that seems to be a way to throttle back progress a bit and yet keep you coming back.   That being said, I'm playing it on IOS7 on an iPad4 and it's been great for me, but I've heard people with serious bug issues on Android.  And I've had some issues with it not connecting when I'm clearly on an internet connection.  But overall it's a fun time-waster so far.  
And yes, clearly you are a terrible person.  ​

Stuff to yap about


Read this article about the impending tv deal and figured it was something to yap about. Personally, I don't know what any of this stuff means.

​It could never happen.  Vince controls 90% of the shares of the company and it's nearly impossible for him to actually sell it.  I doubt it would ever happen as long as Vince is alive, either.  Now if he dies and the investors don't have confidence in his doofus son-in-law running a billion dollar business, that's another story.  

The Thing With The Stuff

Warning:  If you’re a classy person above watching a trainwreck, stop here. Since someone asked, here’s the series of e-mails I received from Caliber over the course of the past couple of weeks.  I pointedly ignored him and never answered any of them.  January 19:  He e-mails me out of nowhere. Bottom line, I always liked writing for the BoD, and I’m ready to come back. I make you money, I dig the exposure. I’m Hulk Hogan, you’re Vince.
However, and you’re probably going to think I’m out of mind and full of gull, but before I come back, I’d like an apology. The reason I left last time was because you treated me like a petulant child, and spit in my face despite my hardwork for the website. I realize now you don’t care about anything outside of your family, and that all of this is just the internet, and just business, which is how I need to see things.
But I’d like an apology.
Then we’re back to business, and since each time I take longer and longer before I leave, we’re probably looking at 2 years before something gets my britches in a bunch.
If you think that’s a ridiculous request, then let’s just forget the email.
So I decided to forget it. February 28, he e-mails back again: Alright, you called my bluff, and it’s crystal clear I won’t be getting my apology.
However, I’m gonna swallow my pride and come back if you’ll have me.
As I said, there’s money on the table that you’re not taking advantage of. You seem to sort of do the bare minimum for the BoD, when you could do a lot more and honestly not have to have a day job.
If I come back, I can tell you about a lot of the ideas I have for the site, as well as finally get the BoD Podcast off the ground. As a guy who’s written/recorded over 50 songs and has a degree in audio engineering, I know a thing or two about creating a podcast. It would be an immediate success due to the BoD’s  popularity, and I think I’d be able to make it rather entertaining.
As for what I want to do when I return, I don’t want the QOTD back, I’m happy with what Meek’s doin, instead I want to start the fitness article I was primed to do right before I left. It’s something everybody said they’d like to see, and I know it’d be a hit. Along with a few wrestling reviews thrown in there for good measure.
You don’t even have to bother responding, if I’m back I’ll see “new post” as an option when I go to the site when you reinstate my posting abilities, and I’ll know it’s go time. When I see that, I’ll fill you in with the ideas I have for the site, as what can be done with the podcast.
March 6, getting more desperate now: Hey Scott,
I was wrong. I truly don’t think you were being malicious at all, and instead of just asking you about it, I took my ball and went home like a petulant child. I try and act like I’m a professional, but doing things like simply quitting without saying anything isn’t what professionals do. It isn’t how things are done in the real world, and I honestly regret doing it.
I truly want to come back to the BoD and write again. I miss the experience, and honestly have a handful of great ideas.
I’m not apologizing to you because I think it’s what you want to hear, I’m genuinely sorry for my actions. I have a bit of an ego, and I honestly need to check it at the door. I promise if you allow me to come back that it won’t ever happen again, and you’ll receive absolutely no waves from me whatsoever.
March 9: Honestly, this is insanely humbling.
I’m not the type to apologize often, because I rarely think I’m wrong. But I was wrong with how I’ve handled getting pissed off when writing for the BoD, and I’m very sincere when I say I’m sorry. If I wasn’t, then I wouldn’t have even bothered, seeing as how you could simply post these emails and show everyone how Mr. I Want My Apology came crawling back.
Really, I took a look at myself and simply realized a few things. I can be a bit of an asshole, because I tend to follow others career paths & styles instead of sticking to what I think I should do. I also realized when it comes to writing, I’m not nearly as good as I think I am. I
also realized I need to be a hell of a lot more mature when it comes to a lot of things in life.
I truly want to come back to the BoD as a writer, and I swear to you, you have my word that you won’t regret it. This isn’t some ploy where I tell you what you want to hear. I truly have over-hauled myself and am trying my damndest to do things differently.
All I’m asking for is one more chance. Just a bit of forgiveness on your part to prove I’ve changed, and will conduct myself in a professional & mature manner. If you do allow me to return, and anyone asks me why I came back, I won’t hesitate to tell them you allowed me to, and that I was being a pompous jerk before.
Please, Scott. I truly am sorry, and will bust my ass for the website as I have in the past, without any of the childish behavior. As you know I’m big on the “being a man” deal, and truly believe that the biggest thing a man can do is keep his word, and as I stated before, you have my word that you’ll see hide nor hair of my previous actions.
Finally, earlier today: Hey Scott,
Since we won’t be working together any further, would you please remove the banner I created from the BoD website? I was cool with it being up while I was gone, as I knew I’d come back, but since it isn’t happening, I’d like you to remove it. There are a ton of people at the BoD who’d probably jump at the chance to design a new banner, or you could just use one of those free graphic generators online. Either way, please take mine down.
I appreciate it.
So there you have it. 

“Buff, F*ck Your Stuff”

Morning BoD.  The original idea I had for this “What If” topic was pretty big pictured.  It evolved into a series of 3 smaller related questions. Lucky you!  Feel free to weigh in on all of them or none of them. 

WWE buying out WCW was a paradigm changing moment for the entire wrestling industry.  The follow up and logic behind reestablishing WCW has always mystified and interested me.  I’m sure we are all familiar with the reports that the original plan was for WCW to become a separate entity/brand from the WWF.  They would have toured separately, had its own tv timeslot, ran their own ppvs, etc. Apparently, 1 moment changed all that…
What if Buff Bagwell vs Booker T on Raw (July 2, 2001) was a 4 star match, with legit crowd heat? Apparently the crowd apathy, along with Buffs lackluster skills was a huge reason Vince soured on this entire idea.  Buff was never seen on WWE TV again.
Things to consider:
– WCW wrestlers had only been appearing on WWE TV since May 28.  Lance Storm, Hugh Morris, then Booker T were the first 3 to appear, if memory serves me correctly.  Should WWE have spent more time building these guys up as legit threats?

– How damaged was the WCW brand at this point? 

– Was the idea of a separate WCW brand dead on arrival without big stars headlining it?  Could Vince have established WCW without them?  What if Vince shells out the multimillions to bring in  the Goldbergs, Nashs, etc.? Would WCW still be a viable brand to this day?  Would these guys have given the initial WCW a strong enough reintroduction where it would have gotten the momentum it needed to become a sustainable long term brand?

 – Was Vinces ego the real reason a WCW brand never stood a chance at being reestablished?  Was Vince always intent on “crushing WCW in kayfabe” that no situation could have prevented this?  If you could ask Vince one question while he was on sodium thiopental (truth serum), what would it be?  This would be in my top 5. 

This is pretty open ended, so Ill keep it short and leave the dicussion up to you.  Go in any direction you want. 

More Brock stuff

Hi Scott, hope you are well.
 
Saw this, and thought you might have a reaction (wind up Scott, watch him go!;)
 
 
A prominent MMA columnist says that he's glad Brock Lesnar is out of MMA and back in WWE. The Toronto Sun's Jose Rodriguez posted the following article, calling Brock "loud-mouthed" and saying he cheapened the sport:
Now, not questioning Lesnar's athleticism for a second, but it's a little like the righting of the Earth's axis to see him back where he belongs. I, for one, can't think of a better home for the loud-mouthed, brash and often times ignorant Lesnar. He did little to build the credibility of the sport and, if anything, cheapened it.
There is something seriously wrong when The Undertaker is one of the featured stars in the stands during a UFC pay-per-view. Just doesn't seem right. Brock, I will NOT miss you though I wish you nothing but success in your return to an acting career.
 
Thoughts?

 
Obviously now that Brock's gone the sport can return to the untarnished state it was in before, with role models like Nick Diaz and Alistair Overeem to keep the class level up.  Brock might have been a loud-mouth, but he could back it up in the ring and never failed a single drug test.  Haters gonna hate.

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Title values and other stuff

Hi Scott hope you’re well. A few topics have been on my mind recently and I thought I’d throw them your way to maybe get your and your bloggers’ take.

1. Half-hearted self-fulfillingly doomed-to-fail first title runs. A lot has been made in recent years of how guys like Swagger and Sheamus and Del Rio etc win the title before they’re ready, are booked weakly and then lose them again soon after. ‘Weak’ first title reigns plague and hamper these up-and-comers in the modern WWE, or so the consensus IWC view seems to be. But I’m not convinced this is an entirely new trend. Heel first-time champs have been booked with lame initial reigns at least since I started watching with HHH’s elevation to the main event level. HHH took the title from Austin by beating Mick in a triple threat, then quickly lost it in a 6-way match. Wasn’t Angle’s first title won via an errant Rikishi superkick? And then he spent a month running away from the Undertaker. Jericho had a (very) strong double win over Austin and the Rock but was quickly playing second fiddle to Stephanie. Jumping to a bit later Edge’s first win was a cheap-as-they-come (though novel at the time) briefcase cash-in over Cena, lost back a few weeks later. There are exceptions for monster heels both then (Brock) and now (Henry), but the trend of heels having a weak/flukey/short initial runs is consistent enough I’d say. And once they have the cache of ‘former champ’ then they are allowed stronger reigns. So given that do you think we’re too quick to panic over the short shrift given to  the first runs that Swagger and co have been getting? I can see whether Swagger or Bryan or whoever is ready for a title being an issue, but the crappy undermining booking of the first reigns seems par for the course to me. Just to be clear, I don’t doubt that there is a problem with diminishing the value of the titles – I just don’t think these poor first reigns are too much of a new disgrace, maybe just more noticeable as there have been more new champs than in the days with there being two belts and twice as many.

Well, traditionally in WWE, heel champions have been transitional to the next big babyface champion.  It’s actually pretty rare for a Yokozuna-style monster heel to get the belt and then spend a while getting chased by the babyfaces.  Mark Henry got 3 months and that’s been the exception for a while now.  I think it’s more just their usual short-term planning problems that leads to things like Del Rio getting chopped off at the knees rather than any grand plan for how heel champions are booked. 

2. MITB and Elimination Chamber are the biggest causes of the devalued titles. As much fun as these concepts are, I think they have done more to hurt the prestige of the titles than all the mid-card too-early wins mentioned above (though the two phenomena are linked of course). Because the chamber matches prior to Mania and especially the briefcase cash-in make it way too easy to just shift the belts around without any storyline build-up. The belts have value when guys are fighting over them in a compelling feud. The Cena – Punk feud is an obvious recent example of this. But these concepts allow the belt to be moved around from one guy to the next with no feud at all, or maybe even worse just switched to whichever feud ‘needs’ them with little-to-no transition. For example a couple of years ago the Edge – Jericho match at Mania needed to be for the title. So they just switched it from whoever had it before (I don’t even remember) to the already-ongoing Edge-Jericho program via the Chamber match. There was no sense of it being a meaningful moment in any way, no feud between the existing champ the new one – just a lazy rearranging of all the pieces ready for Mania.

The pre-WM chamber is definitely becoming an issue, especially like this year where there was no reason to even have the matches aside from “It’s February, time for the Chamber”.  Like why did CM Punk need to defend the title?  That being said, you picked the worst example possible, because Jericho winning the title was an INCREDIBLY meaningful moment – Shawn Michaels screwed over Undertaker to finally force him into accepting Shawn’s challenge for Wrestlemania!  But yeah, the Magic Briefcase booking can get pretty tiresome.  The silliest example is of course this past year, where Daniel Bryan was treated like a job guy for months and then had to be rehabilitated once he won the belt.  Yeah, it worked, but for every Bryan there’s a Jack Swagger where it DOESN’T work. 

3. Rather different tack this one, but with my native land having the dubious honour of hosting the Olympics this year, how about fake wrestling as an Olympic sport? I’ve argued this mainly out of contrariness to the mocking of wrestling by fans of real sports, but really how is the USA sending their best two guys out there to wrestle a match in front of a panel of informed judges, with points for technique, choreography, complexity, acrobatics and even storytelling so different from them sending two ice dancers to do a routine, or gymnasts or synchronised swimmers… or whoever does that stupid twirly ribbon thing? I guess my point isn’t really that fake wrestling should be an Olympic sport, but that those other judged performance ‘sports’ shouldn’t be – but you can’t have it both ways as far as I can see… just an idea…

I’ve been an advocate of exactly this idea for many years.  I believe Paul Heyman had lobbied for it in the past as well, but I could be misremembering.  But yes, it’s a fabulous idea that’s the next logical extension of wrestling’s destruction of kayfabe. 

Sting Stuff

So I was watching Sting’s segment in “Greatest Stars of the 90s” and seeing his “surfer” gimmick again made me wonder: how do you think his career would’ve gone if he started with Vince first in the 80s? Question,
Was there ever a point pre-Monday Night Wars and possibly even pre-nWo
that Vince McMahon (or someone else in the WWF) talked to Sting about
possibly jumping ship? Otherwise, was there ever talk about Sting
contacting WWF (even if it was solely for contract leverage) about
jumping ship? One missed opportunity seems to be when the Ultimate
Warrior won the WWF Title. They broke in together and had some history
that could have been played up. And Vince could have had the added
benefit of burying an NWA/JCP star in the process.

As to the first question, I think he would have become a gigantic star and made shitloads of money, but not been anywhere near as good a worker.  Since there wasn’t a Ric Flair around at that point to really elevate him, it probably would have left him stuck in the midcard for a long while before the descent of Hogan in 92 opened up a slot.  Then with them needing a new guy to carry the belt in 92, he could have filled the Bret Hart role of the smaller non-roided guy and probably would have ended up being one of the biggest stars in the business anyway.  And yes, Vince tried to get Sting to jump ship several times, but he always refused.  And really, once Hulk came into WCW in 94, that was where Sting should have seen the writing on the wall and escaped if he was going to.  I guess he was just always faithful to JCP/WCW for some strange reason. 

Sting Stuff

So I was watching Sting’s segment in “Greatest Stars of the 90s” and seeing his “surfer” gimmick again made me wonder: how do you think his career would’ve gone if he started with Vince first in the 80s? Question,
Was there ever a point pre-Monday Night Wars and possibly even pre-nWo
that Vince McMahon (or someone else in the WWF) talked to Sting about
possibly jumping ship? Otherwise, was there ever talk about Sting
contacting WWF (even if it was solely for contract leverage) about
jumping ship? One missed opportunity seems to be when the Ultimate
Warrior won the WWF Title. They broke in together and had some history
that could have been played up. And Vince could have had the added
benefit of burying an NWA/JCP star in the process.

As to the first question, I think he would have become a gigantic star and made shitloads of money, but not been anywhere near as good a worker.  Since there wasn’t a Ric Flair around at that point to really elevate him, it probably would have left him stuck in the midcard for a long while before the descent of Hogan in 92 opened up a slot.  Then with them needing a new guy to carry the belt in 92, he could have filled the Bret Hart role of the smaller non-roided guy and probably would have ended up being one of the biggest stars in the business anyway.  And yes, Vince tried to get Sting to jump ship several times, but he always refused.  And really, once Hulk came into WCW in 94, that was where Sting should have seen the writing on the wall and escaped if he was going to.  I guess he was just always faithful to JCP/WCW for some strange reason. 

Sting Stuff

So I was watching Sting’s segment in “Greatest Stars of the 90s” and seeing his “surfer” gimmick again made me wonder: how do you think his career would’ve gone if he started with Vince first in the 80s? Question,
Was there ever a point pre-Monday Night Wars and possibly even pre-nWo
that Vince McMahon (or someone else in the WWF) talked to Sting about
possibly jumping ship? Otherwise, was there ever talk about Sting
contacting WWF (even if it was solely for contract leverage) about
jumping ship? One missed opportunity seems to be when the Ultimate
Warrior won the WWF Title. They broke in together and had some history
that could have been played up. And Vince could have had the added
benefit of burying an NWA/JCP star in the process.

As to the first question, I think he would have become a gigantic star and made shitloads of money, but not been anywhere near as good a worker.  Since there wasn’t a Ric Flair around at that point to really elevate him, it probably would have left him stuck in the midcard for a long while before the descent of Hogan in 92 opened up a slot.  Then with them needing a new guy to carry the belt in 92, he could have filled the Bret Hart role of the smaller non-roided guy and probably would have ended up being one of the biggest stars in the business anyway.  And yes, Vince tried to get Sting to jump ship several times, but he always refused.  And really, once Hulk came into WCW in 94, that was where Sting should have seen the writing on the wall and escaped if he was going to.  I guess he was just always faithful to JCP/WCW for some strange reason. 

Sting Stuff

So I was watching Sting’s segment in “Greatest Stars of the 90s” and seeing his “surfer” gimmick again made me wonder: how do you think his career would’ve gone if he started with Vince first in the 80s? Question,
Was there ever a point pre-Monday Night Wars and possibly even pre-nWo
that Vince McMahon (or someone else in the WWF) talked to Sting about
possibly jumping ship? Otherwise, was there ever talk about Sting
contacting WWF (even if it was solely for contract leverage) about
jumping ship? One missed opportunity seems to be when the Ultimate
Warrior won the WWF Title. They broke in together and had some history
that could have been played up. And Vince could have had the added
benefit of burying an NWA/JCP star in the process.

As to the first question, I think he would have become a gigantic star and made shitloads of money, but not been anywhere near as good a worker.  Since there wasn’t a Ric Flair around at that point to really elevate him, it probably would have left him stuck in the midcard for a long while before the descent of Hogan in 92 opened up a slot.  Then with them needing a new guy to carry the belt in 92, he could have filled the Bret Hart role of the smaller non-roided guy and probably would have ended up being one of the biggest stars in the business anyway.  And yes, Vince tried to get Sting to jump ship several times, but he always refused.  And really, once Hulk came into WCW in 94, that was where Sting should have seen the writing on the wall and escaped if he was going to.  I guess he was just always faithful to JCP/WCW for some strange reason.