QOTD #37: Changing History

Today’s Question:
If you could change one
match result from wrestling history, which would it be, and why?
We’ll get into the nitty gritty of that tomorrow. Start the
discussion right away by scrolling to the end of this. Otherwise, stick around
to talk about the ladies.

Yesterday, I asked you about the best women’s match you ever
saw? The responses varied from the WWE crowd, to the International crowd, as
you’d expect. Here’s what you said…
jobber123: Sasha Grey vs Bree Olson
Last I heard, Charlie Sheen was winning.
James: Lita vs.Trish Stratus, the match that main
evented Raw in 2004.
MrJustinB: Trish vs Lita, for Trish’s retirement is a
long time favorite of mine.
Lots of love for the Trish / Lita series that dominated the
WWE’s ladies division for nearly 5 years. Lita was always a little sloppy, but
Trish was a ring general who was able to keep it contained – and what resulted
was the absolute pinnacle of women’s wrestling on the mainstream circuit.
WILLYOUSTOP?!?: Jumping Bomb Angels v. Glamour Girls from
Royal Rumble ’88 for a North American match.
This one was brought up tons throughout the comments; and if
you’ve never seen it, you’re missing out on something special. The fact that
Vince didn’t see money in these ladies, and build the entire division around
them is a travesty.
DJ Sprite: As great as the Lita/Trish matches were,
Lita vs. Stephanie McMahon in the main event of raw is the greatest. Rock as
the special ref. Interference from Austin and HHH, the hardy boyz, and the pop
when Lita won. First time women ever main evented raw and they stole the damn
show.
This was actually a big, big deal at the time. It was obviously
a ballsy move to put the women in the main event of RAW when they still had WCW
on the other channel, though the blow was softened by having Rocky and Hunter
hanging around. The fans were absolutely rabid, and as noted, the pop was
incredible. Really made the division feel special again, even for a minute.
ONITA100: Megumi Kudo vs. Combat Toyoda (No Rope
Electrified Barbed Wire Match) From 1996, been my favorite womens match since I
first saw it in the late 90’s on a bootleg tape, so I doubt anything I will see
even in the future will top it. Absolutely brutal match that is LOADED with
emotion. Just wild. They both busted their asses to a level you wont ever see a
diva reach. The chemistry between them is great, and their matches always have
that Sting/Vader vibe. And for note, the sacrifice spot at 25:55 in the vid I
posted is one of my favorite spots ever

Holy … shit. That was a little uncomfortable to watch. I
think I’m part of the macho boat who never wants to see the women *really* get
their asses kicked, and this was a lot to watch. Great match, but I don’t think
I could do it again.
Eric Von Erich: Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki &
Cuty Suzuki & Hikari Fukuoka (JWP team) vs. Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue
& Takako Inoue & Sakie Hasegawa (AJW team) from 7/31/93. It starts off
with the “first attack,” which is four separate five-minute singles
matches. There are no “winners” in these singles matches. If you beat
your opponent your team gets a point and you keep wrestling until the five
minutes are up. After the first attack, it turns into an 8 woman ironman-rules
tag match. The team with the most points at the end of 60:00 is declared the
winner. Great action throughout and perfect booking of the falls. It’s a unique
format that I wish WWE would use for a PPV main event.
Bud, you lost me just explaining the rules. If I need it
written down, and a math teacher standing over my shoulder taking me through
what’s going on, it’s probably too much for me. But, we’ll let the readers
decide.
joedust: Micke James v. Trish Stratus is probably the
best women’s match of this era. It had a very strong angle leading into it and
the match was awesome. Mickie James in particular exclled in her role, and the
crowd gave her a babyface reaction when she won. I always loved that they
thought that Micke’s unwanted advances towards Trish would make Mickie a heel.
TONS of love from the board here. The angle was perfect. A
couple years earlier, they had tried to create the creepy stalker angle against
Trish with Victoria, and while it worked, they outdid themselves here. The
not-so-secretly in love with Trish Stratus Mickie James played her role to
perfection. And after months of subtle, and not so subtle advances, it all
plays out on the biggest stage of them all with the mock cunnilingus in the
middle of a hard fought, excellent match. Of course, this is the same company
that didn’t try to hide Edge’s boner the following year during his live sex
celebration – so class wasn’t exactly a top priority for the WWE a decade ago.
Elmo Machete: Not the “best” by any means, but
my favorite is probably Trish/Steph. It took everybody by surprise and had NO
reason to be as good as it was. That neckbreaker from Regal was siiick.
We’ve covered this at least two other times in QOTD
previously, but yes, this really left everyone in shock. I think we all expected
the usual ladies catfight, and we wound up with a pretty good brawl.
TheQatarian: Another in the “not necessarily the
best, but certainly different” department: the Ivory/Tori hardcore match
from a late-night Raw. This match had a little fire and hatred to it, which is
something that has always generally been lacking in the women’s division.
Sadly, the feud didn’t go anywhere.
Michael Weyer: Victoria vs Trish, Survivor’s Series 2002 as
they just beat the hell out of each other in a fun brawl.
Survivor Series 2002 is probably the PPV I’ve found has the
most rewatchability over the last 10 years, because every match hits the point.
Trish and Victoria was outstanding, as Trish was completely in the groove by
this point making everyone look good except Jackie Gayda. Another great choice.
It’s nice to remember that the women don’t always bring the
drek, and that there are a number of really talented women out there who take
your entertainment very seriously. Thanks for everyone’s participation in the
thread today. Enjoy your Sunday, and I’ll be back tomorrow.

Mike Tyson changing the history of pro wrestling


Think the blog would like this trip down memory lane, looking at how Mike Tyson vs. Hulk Hogan almost happened & what happened when it didn't.

http://stholeary.blogspot.com/2014/06/how-buster-douglas-changed-history-of.html

​I've heard that one about Savage getting the World title in 1990 before and to this day I'm really skeptical about it.  I just don't think Vince was as serious about apparently switching the main event to Hogan/Tyson and Warrior/Savage as it's portrayed.  ​

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds, Part II

Scott,
With hindsight being 20/20, if you could change ONE Wrestlemania card in history, which would it be?  I mean a basic realignment, not adding/substracting guys from other promotions and such.  Example, some people like the idea of a revisionist WM8: Hogan-Flair, Savage-Roberts, Undertaker-Sid.
Wrestlemania XIX always comes to mind for me:
Stone Cold -vs.- Hulk Hogan
Kurt Angle -vs.- Brock Lesnar, WWE Title
Shawn Michaels -vs.- The Rock
HHH -vs.- Chris Benoit, WORLD Title

That redone WM8 is a heck of an idea, actually.  I think a new version of WM4 might have worked better, to make it less boring.  Hogan v. Andre II, Dibiase just defending his World title against Randy Savage (with a #1 contender tournament running on Superstars leading up to the show) instead of doing the tournament, Steamboat v. Valentine as a standalone match… I dunno, tournaments are awesome, but that show needed some serious editing.  I’d also change the two shows where Cena did jobs, because an undefeated Cena eventually going up against undefeated Undertaker would mean way more than whatever momentary rub Miz got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway) or Orton got from going over (and then losing the next month anyway). 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something. 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something. 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something. 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something. 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something. 

Changing Minds

Scott, Have you ever changed your opinion of a match after hearing that one of the wrestlers in it didn’t think it was that good? As examples, Jericho didn’t think his match with Benoit and Angle at Wrestlemania 2000 was very good, and Flair wrote in his autobiography that the match where he dropped the belt to Bret Hart was “terrible.” Did reading those comments make you reconsider those matches, or is it one of those “eye of the beholder” things where you don’t need Radiohead to like “Creep” for you to like “Creep?”

That’s actually the only Radiohead song I do like.  Anyway, wrestlers, like most creative people, are extremely judgmental of their own work, moreso than any other critic could be.  Excepting of course Kevin Nash who thinks everything he shits is gold.  I know that when I’m reading my old rants for the “Scott sez” redoes I’ll be like “This is the most embarrassingly bad horseshit I’ve ever read” despite people telling me how they love to read my old stuff.  So yeah, oddly enough the opinions of the actual wrestlers are often the least important to me when judging a match.  Plus they would often judge the matches on insanely inside and technical aspects that you’re never going to notice as a common fan anyway (“And then here he’s doing a hammerlock when the previous three armdrags clearly foreshadowed a wristlock…”).  If you ever hear Bret Hart, as an example, talk about his own matches that’s kind of what it sounds like at times.  I can also picture Kurt Angle sitting in front of a TV and picking apart his own matches at 3:00AM while hopped up on painkillers, trying to make sure that he doesn’t ruin the next match by grabbing his back with his left hand instead of his right when selling a bodyslam or something.