nWo logic

If I'm remembering correctly,wasn't the initial hook of the nWo "these guys don't work here"? Surely then,when Hogan turned he effectively quit WCW to join them,with that logic gap later closing when Bischoff turned and everything just blurred and blended into one. Am I right here? If so,how could Hogan,Hall and Nash quickly become champs storyline-wise if they didn't even work for WCW?
They did actually do some retconning and say that Bischoff was working for them the whole time (I think right after the powerbomb was the "official" storyline point where he decided to join them in secret) and that was why outsiders were suddenly able to keep their contracts and get title shots and stuff.  It used to make sense when they were paying attention to it.  

QOTD 118: Eff you, Smark Ass.

Today’s question comes from ToddLorenz.

He wants to know Why Does Triple H Hate Smarks? 

Well, Todd, I think it’s for the same reason Dante and Randall of “Clerks” fame hate their jobs. “This job would be great if it wasn’t for the fuckin’ customers”.

 I’ll get into this more after the jump, but my thoughts on the subject are, if I was Triple H, I wouldn’t like me either.

But for now, secondary questions:

If you were Triple H or Kevin Nash, would you hate smarks? Is there a ‘good’ kind of smark and a ‘bad’ kind of smark? 

How often do you think smarks get ‘worked’ by various ‘leaks’ and shoot interviews and such, where pro-wrestlers know the key to a big payday is often times some level of real animosity or some controversy that happened ‘IRL’ that should be settled in the ring? 

See also: Hardy, Matt, Edge,Edgerton, and McBigBoobs, Lita

I think Triple H hates smarks for the same reason I’m not very fond of my first kiss. In 4th grade there was a girl – Rachel. For whatever reason – most likely because we were both fat, the upperclassmen (8th and 9th grade cheer leaders leaders) thought we’d make a cute couple and encourage Rachel and I to kiss at a dance the cheerleaders were putting on.

Which is fine – except that when a lot of people are encouraging you to do something, to the point of annoyance – that any joy or validation of confidence you’d get from that experience is either tainted or dwindled – especially if you intended to do it anyway on your own.

It’s like getting ready to take out the trash and having your mom tell you to do it right before you would have gotten brownie points for being proactive.

Thus if I had to guess I think Mr. H’s problem with Smarks is three fold.

1) He thinks they know better than him. In theory I’d argue this is true. In much the same way sports fan can happily sit back and scream at their TV, call into radio, or blow up twitter, when a coach makes a bone-head call or refuses to feed the ball to a given player, the fact is unless you’re ‘in the shit’ your opinion *is* shit.

Worse, when he does do something we ‘approve of’ instead of giving the man credit, we say ITS ABOUT TIME or LET’S SEE HOW THEY SCREW IT UP.

2) He’s a heel. It’s one thing to get booed at a show, but I mean, when seemingly every HARDCORE pro wrestling fan hates your guts or generally dislikes you, I have to imagine in some, backasswards way, he enjoys it.

Similar to how I love using Blog Otters because everyone hates it, I imagine Triple H happily shits on the Smarks because he gets a rise out of it, and knows they’ll keep showing up and watching Raw and bumping live threads.

3) He has a chip on his shoulder. For better or worse, Triple H remains and I imagine he feels wildly disrespected. Rock left. Stone Cold left. Lesnar left. Lashley left. Benoit died. Eddie died. And I imagine it pisses him off that we don’t respect the guy.

Triple H save for an injury or two was WWE’s Anchor for seemingly ever. He didn’t do drugs. He didn’t drink. He never beat his wife or left to make a movie, then left for good to make more movies. Here is a guy who eats, sleeps, and BREATHES pro-wreslting, and we all hate him.

So he hates us back.


I was looking for some kind of insightful quote from Triple H, and this is the first thing that popped up, which is ASSUREDLY NOT from him, but cool anyway:

The best thing for being sad, replied Merlyn, beginning to puff and blow, is to learn something. That is the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only one thing for it then to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting.

What if Arn Anderson had come over to the WWF without Tully?


A recent thread about the potential return of Sting that turned into a bit of a chat about late-80s, early-90s wrestling kind of got me thinking.

What if Arn Anderson had come over to the WWF as a singles wrestler and got a bit of a push – one at least as strong as the Brainbusters did?  Tully was clearly the weak link on that team and Arn was well suited to the WWF of that era – or of any era for that matter.  He was a good worker, was built enough, in good shape and could talk his ass off.  Was basically Jake Roberts with more muscle and less baggage, and Jake was over something fierce.  

So, what scenario do you see if Arn comes into the WWF at that time?  Would he have gotten over like Hennig did as Mr. Perfect?  Perhaps more?  Maybe a Bad News Brown-esque character?

Wait, what?  Tully Blanchard was the weak link?!  In what universe?  Arn wouldn't even have gotten a look without Tully, I guarantee.  

Halloween Havoc 1998

Havoc 1998
October 25, 1998
MGM Grand Garden Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada
Tony Schiavone, Mike Tenay, Bobby Heenan
Reviewed by Tommy Hall
FINALLY here after six weeks of buildup. It’s a double main event
with Warrior and Hogan in the battle for Hollywood’s sanity and ego
as well as Diamond Dallas Page challenging Goldberg for the World
Title. However the show is remembered far more for something that
had nothing to do with the wrestling. Let’s get to it.

opening video hypes up the big matches on tonight’s card with the
overly dramatic music playing in the background. This really is a
stacked card.
set looks AWESOME with a giant demon holding an inflated pumpkin with
the Halloween Havoc logo. WCW always did nail their sets unlike
today where you’re lucky to get a few props.
announcers hype up the double main event. By this I mean they
mention Goldberg vs. Page in one sentence and then talk about Hogan
vs. Warrior for two minutes. Thankfully Tenay actually talks about
the World Title match and how different Page and Goldberg’s paths
have been to get here.
open with the Nitro Girls in the ring. Since most of you probably
know what’s coming, I’m going to keep track of the time being wasted
on segments like this. The ongoing total will be listed in
parentheses at the end of each segment. (1:10)
lists off three matches added: Disco vs. Juvy with the winner getting
a title shot later in the night and Raven challenging for the TV
brings out Rick Steiner for a chat as we wait on the first match.
Rick says this isn’t brother vs. brother tonight because he sees
Scott as just another opponent. Buff Bagwell comes out sans NWO gear
to say he’s had a real change of heart. Everyone is sick of Scott
Steiner and he knows the NWO doesn’t work one on one. Therefore,
Buff should be in Rick’s corner tonight and he barks to prove his
loyalty. Rick doesn’t know if he can trust Buff but goes along with
it anyway. (4:37)
Title: Raven vs. Chris Jericho
could be good. Side note: I’m watching this on the WWE Network
(praise be its name) and Break the Walls Down is swapped in for
Jericho’s WCW theme. My head snapped up when I heard that instead of
his regular song. Raven complains about his losing streak and asks
What About Me.
went to bed at 11am this morning and then arrived at the arena to
find out he’s in an unscheduled match. Well he doesn’t feel like
wrestling tonight so he gets up and leaves. Jericho doesn’t want to
wrestle either but all of the Jericholics are here to see him because
Jericho equals buyrates and rock and roll. He was really looking
forward to facing an icon like the leader of the Flock, but there
wouldn’t be much of a challenge because Raven is a LOSER. That’s
enough to get Raven inside for the opening bell, nearly thirteen
minutes into the show.
jumps him coming in and whips Raven with his leather jacket, setting
up the arrogant cover for two. Raven gets his hands on Jericho and
they fall over the top and out to the floor. Jericho gets suplexed
ribs first onto the steps and comes up holding his knee. A dropkick
off the steps puts the champion down again. Jericho: “HELP ME!”
Back in and Jericho hits a quick Stun Gun before the springboard
dropkick sends Raven into the barricade.
follows him out with a dive but Raven steps aside and Jericho goes
head first into the barricade as well. It’s Raven’s turn now as
Jericho whips him into the steel again before they head back inside.
Raven bites Jericho’s face before throwing on a quickly broken
sleeper. Jericho hits a backsplash and takes the turnbuckle pad off
but Raven blocks the whip into the corner. A standing hurricanrana
is countered into a powerbomb by Raven before he catapults Jericho
face first into the buckle for two.
is oddly unharmed by being sent face first into steel but Raven
catches him in a belly to belly for two. Back up and Jericho sweeps
the legs to put on the Liontamer. Raven is quickly in the ropes and
hits the Even Flow out of nowhere for two. A low blow lets Chris hit
a German suplex for another close two as Kanyon runs out and gets on
the apron. Jericho immediately knocks him off and reverses another
Even Flow attempt into the Liontamer for the quick submission.
B+. Why does no one bring this
up as a great match for either guy? They meshed the hardcore and
wrestling stuff together here and got a great match as a result.
Jericho was wrestling like a face here for the most part and it
worked just as well as his awesome heel run. The announcers played
up how Raven has been submitting so quickly after passing out from
the Crossface with a smile earlier in the year. Nice touch of
continuity to go with a great match.
are Hogan (in an NWO Nitro t-shirt) and Eric Bischoff with a goatee
and haircut. Before the actual promo starts, Hogan says he beat up
everyone in wrestling because he loves Eric so much. Eric is always
asked what he admires the most about Hollywood. Since there’s so
much, it’s that he represents the family values of this millennium.
says he could be long winded out here but he knows the NWOites all
love him and worship the ground he walks on. He goes on about how he
attacked Horace to prove a point and we get clips because just
talking about it isn’t enough. Hogan says he went a bit too far but
it was drawing a line on what it meant to be an NWOite. Tonight,
Warrior will know exactly what it’s all about and he’ll get beaten up
real bad for life. Since that’s not enough, Hogan spends another
minute talking into the camera as the music plays. (10:07)
vs. Wrath
fight starts on the floor with Wrath sending Meng into the steps and
taking him down with the flip dive off the apron. They
head inside with Wrath getting two off a middle rope clothesline.
Meng rolls forward to escape the Meltdown and the Kick of Fear gets
two. A gutbuster gets the same but Wrath comes back with knees to
the ribs in the corner. Meng gets two more off a belly to back
suplex but misses the Death Grip. A Rock Bottom is good for two on
Meng before the Meltdown gets the pin for Wrath.
D+. The match was a decent
power brawl and it gets Wrath a his biggest win to date. They’re
actually building him up strong and it’s very nice to see for a
change. You would think putting the TV Title on him would make sense
as Jericho doesn’t need it and the US Title simply wasn’t happening
for Wrath at this point.
is ready to face either Guerrera or Disco Inferno tonight. I
won’t count this as a waste of time because it was like fifteen
seconds long.
Inferno vs. Juventud Guerrera
gets a Cruiserweight Title shot against Kidman later tonight. Disco
stomps away in the corner to start but grabs a side slam for two.
Juvy lands a LOUD chop to take over and does some quick dancing of
his own. Guerrero tries the backflip out of a Fameasser position but
just falls to the side. A second attempt at a Fameasser works a bit
better and Disco gets monkey flipped over the top. Juyy baseball
slides into a headscissors and both guys go down for a few seconds.
in and Disco takes over with an atomic drop and clothesline before
stopping to dance instead of cover. We hit the chinlock with no
cranking on it at all before Juvy slides to the apron to take Disco
down with a Stunner. Disco heads outside again and turns his back on
Guerrera, allowing him to be taken out by a nice plancha. They head
inside again and Disco grabs a swinging neckbreaker but lays on the
mat instead of covering.
counters a sunset flip with a right hand but stops for a Macarena.
He busts out a giant swing of all things but dizzies himself. It
doesn’t turn out all that badly though as he falls head first onto
Juvy’s groin. Referee: “Juvy are you ok?” All three announcers:
“NO HE’S NOT OK!” Disco takes forever to get up top so Juvy can
nip up and grab a top rope hurricanrana. Now it’s Juvy on top with a
spinwheel kick (his hip hit Disco so Tony’s “flying body attack”
description is more accurate) for two and the sitout bulldog gets the
same. Juvy loads up a victory roll but Disco shoves him off and
nails the jumping piledriver for the pin.
B-. Shockingly good match here
with Disco wrestling a normal style against the high flier in
Guerrera. I’ll give Disco this: he turned a ridiculous gimmick into
a successful career and had some solid matches throughout. That
jumping piledriver looked great as well and made things even better.
Girls again, this time with hats and chairs. Kimberly’s complete
lack of emotion is more disturbing than anything else. (11:05)
Scott Steiner with something to say. He’s been going for thirty days
with a freak on his left, a freak on his right and one in a box. Big
Poppa Pump is in town and ready to pound so here’s a catchphrase. He
beat up Buff in front of his brother, so why not make this match
interesting tonight, and have Buff/Rick vs. Giant/Scott? We’ll make
it even more interesting and make it for the World Tag Team Titles.
Giant comes out and agrees.
comes out and asks if they’re serious. If they’re willing to do so,
let’s make it even MORE interesting: if the titles change hands, Rick
gets to face Scott in a fifteen minute match. You know, LIKE THEY
ALREADY ADVERTISED. Scott says deal. This makes potentially five
matches added to the card already tonight. (15:42)
Finlay vs. Alex Wright
forbid we don’t see this match again after they fought on Nitro two
weeks ago (and again this coming week on Thunder). Finlay
drives him into the corner to start as the announcers immediately
start talking about Hogan vs. Warrior. Wright does three straight
nip ups and climbs the corner to escape a wristlock. I guess just
spinning Finlay’s arm around was too passe for a European. They
trade European uppercuts with Wright taking over and stomping away as
the boring chants start up about two minutes in.
catapult into the bottom rope has Finlay in trouble but he comes back
with a catapult of his own, sending Wright chest first into the ropes
so he falls back onto Finlay’s knees. They head outside with Wright
taking over and slamming Finlay onto the floor. Finlay comes back by
dropping Wright’s throat across the barricade out of a fireman’s
carry. Back inside and they tumble right back down again. Wright
comes back inside and misses a missile dropkick. Finlay’s charge
hits the post and Alex hits a neckbreaker for the pin.
C. The match was fine but this
was already done on Nitro and the story isn’t interesting in the
first place. Wright has won most of the matches between the
participants so far and it hasn’t really done anything for anyone
involved. This is a good
example of a match that just didn’t need to be on the PPV.
Miller talks about being great on WCW.com but Lee Marshall points out
that all his nicknames are already taken. Kidman at least had a
match tonight. (16:42)
vs. Saturn
is added match #5.
December to Dismember only added four. Lodi has little pieces of
chains on his trunks which jingle every time Saturn does anything.
Wait stop the match! SOMEONE IS TAKING LODI’S SIGNS! Thankfully
Lodi gets out of the ring and chases the guy down, demanding that he
leave the signs at ringside. Back in and Saturn takes him down with
a leg sweep, sending Lodi to the floor again. Lodi has to save his
signs again and tries to
leave but Saturn throws him back in and destroys him with the usual,
setting up the Death Valley Driver for the pin.
D. It’s a comedy match which is
the only way you could do a Lodi vs. Saturn match. That being said,
what was the point in adding this to the card? To give the audience
a breather from between the big matches that could be on Thunder and
whatever comes next? At least Saturn got to look dominant.
announcers talk about what’s coming. We also get a recap video of
the Bagwell vs. Scott feud, which at least sets up a match later so
I’ll count it as mattering.
Girls, looking very nice in leather pants and cut off tops. (19:00)
Title: Kidman vs. Disco Inferno
is challenging and is quickly dropkicked down to the corner. A drop
toehold sets up an armbar from the champion before he just stomps a
mudhole on Disco. Kidman gets a bit too cocky though and gets sent
throat first into the ropes, followed by a neckbreaker for two.
Disco tosses him outside but Kidman climbs up the steps for a bulldog
down to the floor. Back in and the champion misses a top rope splash
to give Inferno a two count.
hit the chinlock on Kidman but he quickly gets up and hits a hard
clothesline. Disco avoids a charge in the corner and stomps Kidman
down before talking a lot of trash. A middle rope elbow misses after
Disco wastes too much time dancing. He’s able to avoid a dropkick
though and hit the jumping piledriver for a delayed two count.
Kidman reveres a suplex but can’t hit his bulldog out of the corner.
Instead it’s Disco getting two off a gordbuster but taking too much
time trying the Macarena Driver. Kidman counters with a faceplant
and the Shooting Star retains the title.
B-. Not as good as the Guerrera
match but it still worked quite well. Kidman was awesome at this
point and could have a good match with anyone (except Scott Hall of
course) as the division is really getting awesome again. Thankfully
the LWO wasn’t a part of this as it just isn’t catching my interest
so far.
music video (edited off the Network). (21:30)
Titles: Scott Steiner/Giant vs. Rick Steiner/Buff Bagwell
and Giant are the real champions but it’s NWO Rules. The rules state
that if the NWO loses, Rick and Scott will face each other for
fifteen minutes. Not in a fifteen minute time limit match, but for
fifteen minutes. Bagwell is in street clothes. We stall a bit more
before the bell, but Tony is immediately plugging Bride of Chucky as
soon as the bell rings. Giant chops Rick in the corner to start and
Scott says stay on him instead of making a tag.
a few belly to back suplexes it’s off to Scott with some forearms to
the back as Buff plays cheerleader on the apron. Scott stays on him
for a few moments before he gets caught with an atomic drop. A
Steiner Line (not a lariat Tenay) puts Scott down and it’s off to
Buff who of course turns on Rick because THAT’S WHAT BUFF BAGWELL
DOES. Seriously, it’s all he’s done for most of this year. It’s
like the bad movie sequel when they’re just doing the same plot again
but this time it’s the same people.
runs off to make it a handicap match as Scott kicks his brother low.
The fans LOUDLY call this bull as Giant comes in and stands on Rick’s
chest. The beating keeps going with a slam from the Giant as the
announcers speculate about Judy Bagwell being in on this. Back to
Scott as Rick fights back but gets stopped by another low blow. Tony
says the WCW rules committee needs to look at that move. Wait so
it’s not a DQ already? Giant goes up for a missile dropkick of all
things (looked good too) but lays out Scott by mistake. Rick hits
the top rope bulldog for the pin and the titles because oh why not.
D. Do I really need to explain
this one? The match wasn’t entertaining and the swerve surprised no
one, but the announcers of course treat it like some award winning
performance. What’s the point in having a setup and the swerve in
the span of an hour and a half? I know WCW thinks its fans are
stupid but come on. But hey, at least we have WACKY Tag Team
Champions now.
Steiner vs. Scott Steiner
tries to run and Giant is still down in the ring. Rick brings Scott
back to the ring but has to run from Giant. Scott gets sent into the
steps and begs off in the ring but Rick pops him in the mouth. Rick
gets a boot up in the corner and drives him upside down into the
corner for one. Another low blow puts Scott in control again and the
crowd just dies. After some choking, Scott gets caught in a belly to
belly for two. And now we have Buff Bagwell in a Bill Clinton mask
(I don’t get it either) with the slap jack to knock Rick and the
referee silly for the DQ.
scratch that as the match just keeps going despite the bell. Buff
puts Scott on top of Rick and picks up the referee’s hand for the
count. Rick kicks out at two as Scott hits the Frankensteiner out of
the corner for another two count. Buff throws the referee to the
floor but Rick comes back and hits the bulldog on Scott as Nick
Patrick slides in for the pin. Buff:
“ANYBODY SEEN MONICA???” Seriously what was up with the Clinton
is that such a horrible idea? There’s a built in story and it would
probably be an entertaining power match, but for some reason WCW
keeps dragging it out longer and longer until no one is going to care
know he was on trial around this time, but why is Buff in a Clinton
mask supposed to be funny?
recap Hall vs. Nash. These guys split up at Slamboree in May and
they’re having their first match five months later. Somehow that
puts the Steiners to shame. Hall
turned on him because he needed money which Hogan and Bischoff were
willing to give him. It’s a lame story but it’s better than nothing.
Hall vs. Kevin Nash
comes out with a cup in hand as Tony gives us a disclaimer about Hall
needing help. Scott throws
the drink in Nash’s eyes and hammers away to start, knocking Nash out
to the floor. Scott chokes him with a camera cable and blasts Nash
with a big right hand while still wearing the vest. It’s time for a
mid match promo as Scott asks how the world looks through foggy eyes.
inside with Hall hammering away even more, dropping Nash with a
series of right hands. A discus punch sets up the crotch chop as a
loud Wolfpack chant starts up. Nash doesn’t feel like taking the
Outsider’s Edge this early so he makes his comeback with the right
hands and side slam before collapsing from exhaustion. They slug it
out from their knees, which would have more impact if we were over
five minutes into the match.
Nash up first but Hall bails to the floor to avoid a Jackknife
attempt. Hall comes back in for some more punches before driving in
the shoulder blocks. Nash
fires back with some right hands and the running crotch attack
against the ropes. Some knees in the corner have Hall in trouble and
the framed elbow knocks him down. Nash drives in knees in the other
corner while asking Hall if he wants another drink. Hall’s punches
have no effect at all so it’s a big boot, pull of the straps and two
powerbombs before Nash walks out on the match.
It wasn’t exactly good, but after watching whatever the Steiners
thing was, this was a masterpiece. At least it was a match and had a
story with Nash just wanting to beat some sense into Hall instead of
beating him. Why is that so hard for Rick and Scott to do? Anyway,
not a great match, but there was something here at least.
Girls, now in rainbow colored wigs. (22:30)
Title: Sting vs. Bret Hart
turned on Sting a few weeks back after turning on him a few months
back for reasons still not explained. Sting is challenging
and sits in the ring with the bat as Bret circles around on the
floor. The chase is quickly on outside but they’re nice enough to
come in for the bell. Bret immediately heads outside again but Sting
finally tosses him inside to get going. He rains down right hands in
the corner and hits an atomic drop for two.
fights out of the corner with right hands and headbutts followed by a
DDT for two more. A legdrop gets two for the champion and an elbow
gets the same. This match is almost in slow motion. We hit the
chinlock for a bit before Bret stomps on the chest. Bret
misses a dropkick and Sting
tries the Scorpion to wake the crowd up but Bret is in the ropes
before it goes on. Sting
hammers away and ducks a leapfrog but Bret injures his knee. Somehow
Sting falls for it and Bret loads up a foreign object. A clothesline
knocks it out of his hand but the referee takes it from Sting,
allowing Bret to get in a low blow.
Five Moves of Doom have Sting in trouble and Bret throws him outside.
Back in and Sting accidentally nails the referee with an elbow but
Bret drops a very intentional leg to keep him down. Bret kicks Sting
low again (what is with all these low blows tonight???) but Sting
crotches him on the top for a superplex. Everyone is out but Sting
hits a Stinger Splash, only to knock himself out on the post. Bret
hits him with the bat about five times, including once to the throat,
before putting on the Sharpshooter for the TKO win.
D. This was long and boring
with nothing a stupid ending. Sting is probably going on the shelf
now as the Wolfpack takes yet another hit. Bret winning with the bat
is out of character for him, but then again so is being this bored in
the ring. There’s nothing here again and the match was really slow
and dull.
goes out on a stretcher after
a long time.
Hogan vs. Warrior
we go everyone. This has been called the worst match of all time and
I’m curious to see how bad it really is. Hogan says he can kill the
Warrior and then threatens to murder the bum. Warrior tells Hogan to
get in the ring and immediately drills him with a right hand at the
bell. Hogan takes over with a knee to the ribs and shots to the back
before putting on a wristlock. Warrior counters into one of his own,
sending Hollywood bailing to the floor.
refuses to do the test of strength and takes Warrior into the corner.
Now he’ll do the test with Warrior in trouble and we get the
recreation of the famous sequence. Warrior keeps trying to fight up
but Hogan switches to another wristlock, setting up the criss cross
so Hogan can slam Warrior down. It’s not sold at all but Hogan is
kind enough to sell for Warrior’s slam A clothesline puts Hogan over
the top and out to the floor where Warrior rams him into the
in and the referee gets bumped with Hogan kneeing him in the head as
well. Hogan runs Warrior over and calls in the Giant who
accidentally kicks Hogan in the head. Warrior knocks Giant, Vincent
and Stevie Ray to the floor but gets caught by a belly to back suplex
for two. We get the workout belt whipping followed by one of the
more impressive screwups I can ever remember. You know the spot
where a heel drops elbows but the other guy keeps rolling away? They
try that here but Warrior rolls the wrong way and knocks Hogan over.
Warrior misses the splash (zero reaction) but comes back with a right
hand and hits him with the workout belt. The referee yells at
Warrior so Hogan pulls out a magic kit. It’s a plastic bag with some
paper and a lighter inside which is supposed to be used to make a
fireball but Hogan can’t get it to work and throws the paper at
Warrior before some of it lights up between the two of them. Thank
goodness Warrior doesn’t sell it and hammers away on Hogan.
top rope ax handle (with Warrior’s hands coming apart about 10 inches
before making contact and lightly grazing Hogan’s shoulders but
somehow busting Hogan open. There’s ANOTHER low blow and the legdrop
(still no reaction) before Horace comes out with a chair. Hollywood
misses another legdrop and Warrior fires off some clotheslines as
Bischoff distracts the referee. Horace hits Warrior with the chair
to give Hogan the pin and soothe his fragile ego.
F. Oh yeah it’s bad and it’s
not even in a funny way. This is bad in a pitiful way and doesn’t
get any better at all. Ignoring the traditional illogical turn at
the end by Horace (Hogan said something about passing a test), this
was a long and horrible match with no one looking good.
original idea with the fireball was for Warrior to make a big blind
comeback which even Hulk has said was a bad idea in retrospect. This
was much more embarrassing than anything else with Warrior showing
how he had nothing at all anymore and that Hogan was just a joke
anymore in the ring. I think everything that can be said about this
match has been said at one point or another so I’ll leave it at that.
Hogans pour lighter fluid on Warrior but Doug Dillinger stops the
matches from being thrown.
would be about 10:59 at this point but it’s World Title time.
World Title: Goldberg vs. Diamond Dallas Page
stop it here for a second because this is where it all fell apart.
See, WCW decided that this show should be extra long and asked the
PPV companies to give them an extra thirty minutes. Unfortunately
this was 1998 and not that simple, so a lot of feeds went off
somewhere between the end of the Warrior vs. Hogan match and the
start of the title match. Yeah WCW gave them some advance notice,
but that doesn’t put WCW in the clear. If you look at this show,
they EASILY could have cut nearly an hour out but WCW just couldn’t
let that happen.
the show ran roughly three hours and twenty minutes, so cutting out
say 25 minutes would have made this fit the time slot. As
I mentioned, we had over 22 minutes of segments that weren’t needed
or Nitro Girls (certainly not worthless but not necessary). On top
of that there was the Juvy vs. Disco match, Wrath vs. Meng, Finlay
vs. Wright, Saturn vs. Lodi
and the Tag Title match which all could have been on free TV instead
of here. WCW never advertised the show as running longer than usual
as far as I know so it’s not like the fans would feel ripped off.
comes off as a combination of stupidity and somewhat arrogance as the
company just figured their plan would work and they just HAD to be
bigger than WWF. What did most of the stuff they added here help?
What does a Saturn vs. Lodi comedy match (probably six minutes with
entrances and a post match replay) do to help the card? It ticked
off the fans and cost them a lot of money, but at least they got the
Buff Bagwell swerve and a Konnan music video on PPV.
now, the match. Page’s music is edited on the Network. Page
charges right at him a few times and is easily shoved away. An
armdrag frustrates Goldberg and they lock up before falling to the
floor without breaking it up. Back in and Page tries a legsweep but
Goldberg does a standing backflip to avoid it. Men his size should
not be able to do that. A bad looking cross armbreaker has Page in
trouble and Goldberg shoves him out of the ring to block the Diamond
in and Page takes him down into a hammerlock but a hard shoulder
block puts him on the floor. Page is able to snap Goldberg’s throat
across the top rope and he follows up with a swinging neckbreaker. A
Russian legsweep gets two and we hit a front facelock. Goldberg
knees his way out of it and hits a spinning neckbreaker to put Page
down. A hard hiptoss puts Page down and a side slam gets two for the
champion. Back to the cross armbreaker but Page makes the rope.
superkick sends Page flying but he sidesteps the spear, sending
Goldberg hard into the post. Page
gets two off a flying clothesline and the running DDT puts the
champion down as well. He calls for the Diamond Cutter but Goldberg
nails him with the spear. It injures his arm though and Goldberg
can’t get the Jackhammer. Page slips behind him and grabs the
Diamond Cutter but both guys are down. The fans are suddenly WAY
into this as Page gets a very close two. Page tries a suplex of his
own but Goldberg counters into the Jackhammer to retain the title.
B. It’s not a masterpiece but
it’s definitely Goldberg’s best match ever. The fans were buying
into Page as a threat at the end of the match and that’s more than
can be said about the vast majority of Goldberg’s opponents. To put
it simply, this was a good wrestling match. You can’t often say that
about a WCW main event but that’s what you had here.
helps Page up post match and
poses to end the show.
C+. Oh my where do I
start? As is almost always the case, a good effort by lower card is
wasted by most of the main event stuff. Look at the World Title
match for an example. It’s the only good main event match on the
show, but it’s the third thing people remember after Hogan vs.
Warrior and the feed cutting out. Those things overshadow good
efforts by guys like Jericho, Raven and even Disco Inferno.
top of that, look at how much of the card was announced the night of
the show. That’s common with some nothing matches, but there were
three title matches announced during the show. I’m not saying one of
them would have been enough to sell a PPV, but I’d certainly think
Raven vs. Jericho, a Tag Team Title match and a Cruiserweight Title
match in addition to everything else already advertised might have
sold a few extra shows. But
again, they just don’t mention it and add it on here.
should have been a huge night for WCW but it turned into one of the
moments they’re remembered for in a bad way. The card was one of the
most stacked lineups I can ever remember WCW having but it’s
remembered for two huge failures more than anything else. It’s still
definitely a good show with the opener, main event and cruiserweight
stuff outweighing the three bad main event matches (Hall vs. Nash is
bad but not terrible) but the bad is really hard to ignore.

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Montreal question (sorry!)

Hi Scott,

If I may continue to beat the long rotted corpse of the dead horse that is the Montreal Screwjob, I'd like to ask a question about it I've never heard adequately explained: why was Vince so hellbent on putting the belt on HBK at that Survivor Series? With Bret allegedly willing to drop the belt to basically literally anybody else, wouldn't it have saved Vince a monumental headache to just put the belt on, like, Taker or Vader or somebody and then transition the belt onto Shawn at the December PPV or even the next night on Raw? Vince had to have known he was nuking a bridge, so why was it SO goddamned important that Michaels and only Michaels take the belt from Bret?


Pretty sure it was just Vince's typical stubborn streak, in that the match was already booked and pretty anticipated by the fans.   And although Bret was willing to drop it to anyone, he was never asked to.  So clearly Vince only had Shawn in mind, no matter what. 

Thunder – October 22, 1998

October 22, 1998
Tingley Coliseum, Albuqurque, New Mexico
Lee Marshall, Tony Schiavone, Bobby Heenan, Mike Tenay
Reviewed by Tommy Hall
the very last show before Halloween Havoc and we’re actually coming
off a good show on Monday with every major PPV match getting some
focus. Nothing has been announced for tonight but that’s usually the
case coming into Thunder. I’m sure we’ll get plenty of videos on the
two main events though. Let’s get to it.

announcers talk about Hogan attacking Horace on Monday and call it a
horrible act.
look at Goldberg and Page nearly brawling after Goldberg cost Page a
match against Jericho.
Calo vs. Rey Mysterio Jr.
takes over with some kicks to the ribs to start and gets two off a
shoulder block. A missile dropkick gets the same and Calo hooks a
seated abdominal stretch to slow things down. Back up and Calo
throws Rey to the apron before sending him to the floor for a big
dive. Totally one sided so far. Back in and Rey climbs corner to
hit a nice headscissors followed by the yet to be named 619 back
inside. Calo gets caught in the ropes and the top rope legdrop to
the back of his head gets two. Super gets to his feet and goes up,
only to get crotched and taken down with a hurricanrana for the pin.
C-. Nice fast paced match to
start things off here but there wasn’t much to it. It’s nice to see
Mysterio back and mostly healthy though as no one could keep up with
him when he was at even 85-90%. Calo looked better than usual here,
but that doesn’t really say much as he isn’t one of the better
match Eddie and the LWO comes out to offer Rey a spot but he throws
the shirt back at Eddie and leaves. Chavo
watches with a smile on his face from the entryway.
on Page vs. Goldberg.
Page for a quick chat. Monday was nothing but intensity and it makes
him think of Goldberg as even more of a champion. The Diamond Cutter
is enough to beat him though because he’s next. On Sunday, Goldberg
will feel the BANG.
for the Mastercard.
Wright vs. Johnny Swinger
cranks on the arm to start and puts Swinger down with a fireman’s
carry takeover. Johnny comes back with an armbar of his own and a
Russian legsweep has Wright in trouble. A spinwheel kick puts
Swinger down and Alex drapes him ribs first over the top rope.
Swinger comes back with a hard shot to the chest but gets dropkicked
out of the air, setting up a neckbreaker to give Wright the pin.
D+. Just a squash here with
Alex looking good as almost always. I’m still not sure why he never
got a huge push but the thick accent might have had something to do
with it. Or maybe that this is WCW and it’s a good day if they can
tie their shoes properly. Swinger never did anything for me but he
was fine for something like this.
look at the Steiners brawling on Monday.
on Sting vs. Hart closing Nitro. Tony accuses Heenan of being a
snitch for the NWO. Heenan: “I am not!” Tony: “That’s true.
You’re a liar, a traitor, a coward and a snitch.”
Title: Kanyon vs. Chris Jericho
is defending and this has some serious potential. Kanyon does his
Who Better bit with Jericho putting bunny ears up behind his head.
Chris takes the mic and says the real question is Who Better Than
Jericho. Kanyon doesn’t take kindly to gimmick infringement and the
fight is quickly on. Jericho knocks him to the floor with a shoulder
and we take and early break.
with Jericho getting two off the Lionsault as we see Raven for the
first time, looking on from the apron. Jericho does his long stride
and Kanyon sends him face first into the buckle to take over. The
superplex from the middle of the rope (not the corner) puts Jericho
down for two as the fans get distracted by something in the audience.
Jericho counters a suplex into a reverse suplex for two but Kanyon
comes back with a swinging neckbreaker for the same.
announcers talk about Raven looking distracted as Jericho scores with
a gutbuster but can’t get the Liontamer. An electric chair into a
flapjack gets two on the champion but Jericho fights out of a
superplex. Jericho tries a missile dropkick but hits the referee
(Billy Kidman according to Tony and Lee) which draws in Raven. The
Even Flow is easily countered into the Liontamer and Raven taps,
which is good enough for a submission win for Jericho.
C+. Good while it lasted but
the match was more about Raven than anything else. It’s nice to see
Jericho get a win for a change, even if he was acting more like a
face while doing so. The Raven story is interesting as he’s lost his
edge without the Flock and could have some good stories as a result.
from the new Kurt Russell movie Soldier.
see Hogan beating up Horace and Warrior on Monday
vs. Norman Smiley
lockup goes nowhere so Norman makes his chest dance to entertain
Saturn. Apparently Saturn is more of a song than dance man as he
throws Smiley down with a beal before dropping him with a t-bone
suplex for two. Norman picks the ankle but Saturn is quickly in the
ropes before anything can be done. A neckbreaker sends Smiley to the
floor but he comes back in with a nice sunset flip for two.
this is a pretty good technical match so far, the announcers are
talking about Horace. Saturn slams him down but misses a top rope
splash, allowing Norman to take over with some uppercuts. A tiger
bomb gets two for Smiley but Saturn drills him with a superkick.
There’s a belly to belly to Norman followed by the Death Valley
Driver for the pin.
C. The match didn’t have time
to go anywhere but it was nice while it lasted, much like the
previous match. Smiley is a very sound technical guy and could
actually keep up with Saturn on the mat. Saturn’s superkick always
looked good though and it nailed Smiley in the jaw here. Nice little
Luger vs. Scotty Riggs
out process to start until Luger remembers he’s fighting Riggs and
runs him over with some clotheslines. Riggs snaps Lex’s throat
across the top rope and chokes away a lot before scoring with a
dropkick. Luger quickly breaks out of a chinlock as the announcers
say no one anticipated seeing Hogan vs. Warrior again eight and a
half years later. A few running knees in the corner have Luger in
trouble but he comes back with a suplex. Luger comes back with all
of his usual stuff and finishes Riggs with the Rack.
D+. Not the worst squash in the
world here as Riggs looked decent out there. That’s rather
surprising as Riggs is usually one of the least interesting wrestlers
on the roster. Luger was his usual self here, meaning he was
charismatic but used the same moves he’s done for ten years now.
takes yet another look at Bischoff being thrown out of the United
Center. It really wasn’t that big of a deal.
Guerrera vs. Prince Iaukea
trade takedowns to star until Juvy charges into a boot in the corner.
Iaukea gets two off a snapmare and breaks up a sunset flip attempt.
We hit the early chinlock on Juvy followed by a suplex and chops in
the corner. It’s Chinlock: The Sequel followed by another suplex
attempt but Guerrera counters into a Fameasser. A top rope corkscrew
dive puts Prince down and sets up the 450. Disco runs out to break
it up but Juvy dives off with the 450 for the pin just in time.
C. Short but fine as Disco vs.
Juvy continues to build. I’m not sure how good of a match that’s
going to be when we get there but it’s nice to see them doing
something in the cruiserweight division that doesn’t involve the
title. Prince wasn’t bad here but the bald head doesn’t make him
more interesting.
from Nitro of Bischoff being thrown out by cops and the mayor of
vs. Scott Armstrong
the usual intro, Konnan hits the rolling clothesline just after the
bell. There’s the seated dropkick and Scott bails to the floor,
holding his shoulder. Back
in and Scott uses his bad arm for a test of strength and rakes
Konnan’s eyes to take over. A few basic moves later and we’re in the
chinlock. Konnan fights up with some elbows to the ribs but gets
dropped by a clothesline. A bulldog and rollup get two on Scott
before Konnan kicks him in the ribs, hits the X-Factor and hooks the
Sunrise for the win.
D. These squashes are getting
weaker as we’re approaching the end of the show. Konnan was always
better on the mic than he was in the ring and this match proved it
for the most part. Scott was the least interesting of the Armstrong
Family but he wasn’t that bad out there.
of Bret and Sting’s rivalry.
Windham vs. Dean Malenko
says he knows the Horsemen and can prove Dean doesn’t measure up.
Dean hammers away in the corner to start but runs into a big boot. A
lariat puts Dean down again but he grabs a sunset flip. Windham
punches the mat instead of Dean’s head, allowing Malenko to hit a
quick kick to the leg, setting up the Cloverleaf for the win in less
than 90 seconds.
grabs the mic and says that’s why he’s a Horseman. The rest of the
team comes out and Arn has a mic. He says it’s obvious why the
Horsemen are here and calls Bischoff a vicious coward. Bischoff has
been making fun of Arn’s physical shortcomings but he’s not even half
the man Anderson is. If Bischoff ever makes fun of his family again,
Arn will do things to Bischoff that his family should never be
allowed to see. Flair says that this is the Horsemen’s party and
names each individual member. He’ll be running this company one day
and Bischoff will be working for him.
vs. Giant
misses a charge and Sting hammers away but misses the Stinger Splash.
The big man steps on his chest and pounds on him in the corner, only
to miss a big elbow. Three straight Stinger Splashes set up a slam
but Scott Steiner runs in with a chair to the leg for the DQ before
the Deathlock.
NWO lays out Sting until Rick Steiner and the Wolfpack makes the save
to end the show.
C+. It’s still good and
a different kind of show from Nitro. This is one of the most
frustrating things about WCW. It’s clear that they can put on
entertaining shows but we get the garbage that they put on so often
anymore that it’s barely worth watching half the time. Good
show tonight with some entertaining squashes and small build to the
PPV on Sunday.
Remember to check out my website at kbwrestlingreviews.com and head over to my Amazon author page with wrestling books for under $4 at:

Daily Network Thread – 3/15/14

The live streaming schedule for today:

12:00 ET – Wrestlemania Rewind – Wrestlemania XIV
1:00 ET – Best of Smackdown – 9/17/03 – Angle vs. Lesnar Iron Man Match
2:30 ET – This Week in WWE
3:00 ET – Elimination Chamber 2012
6:00 ET – Best of Smackdown – see above
7:30 ET – Smackdown Backstage Pass – after last night’s Smackdown
8:00 ET – Beyond the Ring – NEW! – NWO The Revolution
9:00 ET – Legends of Wrestling – the topic is Monday Night RAW
11:00 ET – Beyond the Ring – see above

Then late night, there will be an ECW Hardcore TV marathon beginning at 2:30 AM ET through 6:00 AM Sunday morning.

BoD Daily Update

Reasons Behind the “Occupy RAW” Segment

The reasoning behind the segment was to “troll” the fans that claimed they were going to hijack RAW last week in Chicago. It has also been reporting that the lines in the segment from Stephanie McMahon about “Disrespecting her family” and “owned” Daniel Bryan are more or less how she feels about CM Punk right now.

Credit Bryan Alvarez, Figure Four Weekly Newsletter

Notes on the Final “Smackdown” Before WrestleMania

It has been reported that the show will consist of matches taped at the RAW tapings that week and cut-ins from the WrestleMania Axxess in New Orleans. It also has been reported that the final Smackdown before WrestleMania will be taped this way going

Credit Bryan Alvarez, Figure Four Weekly Newsletter

Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal Update

There is now talk that this will end up on the WrestleMania pre-show

Credit Bryan Alvarez, Figure Four Weekly Newsletter

New Stable Forming in the WWE?

There is talk of forming a stable of “disgruntled” wrestlers including Dolph Ziggler, The Miz, and Zack Ryder.

Credit Bryan Alvarez, Figure Four Weekly Newsletter


So based on his recent Q&A it sounds like Sting has more than heavily implied his last match is with Taker and he's been brushing up on the current WWE product. As a long time WCW follower (masochist?), this is pretty much the last dream match I have from my golden era of fandom. I don't want to see Sting against anyone else unless it's someone who is proven to carry him and make him look great en route to winning 2-3 matches before the final showdown at Mania 31.
Would you announce the match one year out on the Raw after 30? Do you put Sting in the rafters and slowly build to it ala Hogan without a formal announcement until closer to the event? Does anyone under 30 even give a fuck? -Ronnie Vod
I don't know exactly who would care, to be honest.  Sting is not exactly a known guy outside of us lapsed fans and I don't know if he'd get a much bigger reaction than, say, Ricky Steamboat did for the Jericho deal at WM25 (available now on the Network streaming 16 times a day!)  That's why it's such a tricky deal, because you don't want to waste his remaining matches building him up if he's not gonna get over, and you don't want to waste Taker's yearly match on someone who's not going to justify it.  
They should just play it safe and have HHH job to him instead.  8 or 9 times to be sure.  

QOTD 117: Apocalyptically Speaking…

What’s your favorite fictional, post-apocalyptic future? I can’t get enough of em’. Fallout 3, Mad Max, Alien, Judge Dredd (The 2012 “Dredd” is fantastic, btw), hell, throw “Book of Eli” in there, too. 

Thus, three questions: 
1. What’s your favorite futuristic, post-world-go-boom setting in fiction? Or do you prefer the idea that Distopian comes from within, and think we’ll end up in a “Wall-E” kind of situation?

2. What’s your favorite depiction of this moment? You can say “Armageddon” but I get to beat you up.

3. What do you think is the most likely way humanity goes the way of the step-over toe hold? If you’re sciencey feel free to use actual stats and theories to blow our minds and shake us to our very core.
For whatever reason I tend to subscribe to the “Wall-E” theory – in that humans will become so self-reliant on technology that we eventually just stop doing things for ourselves, then WHAM, we get a “Post Man” style EMP or electronics-killing-macguffin, and we’re boned. 
I can’t speak to the why or how other than to suggest you take a gander at The Malthus Theory and The eventual outcome of the Bubonic Plague. 
Regarding the first question, I think that despite being a kind of a silly action comedy, “Terminator 3″‘s ending is so god damn perfect that it makes that movie completely worthwhile. Feel free to discuss. If anyone here has played “Shadowrun Returns” the world in that game is so rich and well written that you feel like you’re reading a fantastic sci-fi fantasy novel. And I HATE sci-fi fantasy novels. 
*bonus points if you get the reference in the picture.

Title Unification

Scott, hope all is well.  Quick question for you and the BoD.
Been watching alot of 2000-2001 wwe on my lord and savior, the WWE network.  What was the deal with the title unification?  1) Was it just an off the cuff angle to pop a buyrate for a slow December, or was it something planned in advance?  2) If it was planned in advance, why did they go Jericho?  Was it as simple as "this is a guy we want to push"? Wouldn't  putting a title on Rock and a title on Austin, and doing a slow build towards a WM 18 unification have been huge money? 3) Could they have even dragged it out till WM, or did they know storylines eventually were going to shift towards the NWO amd HHHs return? It seems like such a rushed random storyline.  They left alot of money on the table.  Almost as much as you for not bringing back…ahh, it's to


easy.  Thanks,

1.  Seemingly everything about the WCW invasion was booked day-to-day.  In this case, they had already rebranded the WCW World title into simply the World title and seemed to have an idea about using it as a secondary World title (wacky idea, I know) and then seemingly Vince was just like "fuck it, let's unify them."  I will say that it did feel foreshadowed by Survivor Series with all the other titles getting unified.  
2.  The Jericho thing was because they wanted to build to HHH getting the belts.  You can fill in the rest.
3.  The endgame was always HHH triumphing, and in fact the original direction for the Two Man Powertrip was building to HHH v. Austin as the big blowoff there.  Either way, it was all about HHH.